Bill vs. Jim - Round 1

[sirhc]

As you know I am banned from posting on the UBNT Forums but I do go read posts there and since I deploy a ton of UBNT gear and that is where support is provided for their gear I have no choice but to go there anyway, the fact that I can not post support questions for any gear that I purchased......well.....it can be a pain. But I digress, one recent post by Bill and subsequent rebuttal by Jim sort of made me chuckle.

I must give Jim an A+ for effort but maybe he should re-read his post, or maybe it is just me? So here are the two post's in question, below this post make a post explaining what you think Bill and then Jim are actually saying in as few words as possible!

billbuchan
Member

I put two Mimosa B2 links in over the last couple of days. It's pretty amazing kit - it can run two radios on each of the two antennas at the same time, so you can choose between 1x20mhz channel, 2x20mhz channel, 40mhz and 80mhz channels. I'm running 2x20mhz in both my links and easily getting 180mb/s sustained bandwidth over both.

The 'Auto-everything' mode is pretty cool - it basically hunts around for the least used spectrum and moves one or both channels around based on interference and load. And since there's four channels, it can decide (or you can tell it) to use three for one direction/one for the other, or evenly split it.

Stability - 36 hours in - has been excellent.

I have one Rocket AC lite + 30db dish (PtMP to 2xPB 500AC's) and I've struggled over the last three months to get it to perform anything like as well as the Mimosa's, as well as three other PtP NB500AC->NB500AC links. The ones running on the 'older' (pre 7.1 firmware) are *okay*, the newer ones are all hiding at 5180mhz (non DFS channel). Performance wise, not great.

eejimm
SuperUser

I will just add this - here's the difference between these two radio products (total generalization here - TIFWIW - and all public record now as well)

Mimosa has these radios in their warehouse in May 2014. Didn't get them out to the world until December 2014.

So instead of your "3-6 months of pain" (and personal learning and understanding what you can/can't do and expect with the units) vs. the AC radios (which were available in about the same timeframe) you got to wait, and wait, and wait those 8 months, for a radio with basically similar performance at double the price, and without an integrated family of antennas and other parts. Oh yeah, and that only does PtP. For anything else you're looking at another 12 months to wait.

Your call, but I'm more interested in getting my hands on the equipment up front, remembering that just because you have a shiny new toy doesn't mean you have to put it into production now now now! (same thing with firmware, BTW...) We figure to be well into flooding the market with AC PtMP before Mimosa PtMP radios even start shipping.

I'm sorry if you don't like how UBNT functions - how the development cycle works; how beta firmware means Beta; how we are all a part of that development process, which is what makes these products available at the price points they are. Disruptive means just that - on both sides of the counter. If you want "safe" stick with Cambium's older style tech or stick with the products from UBNT that are already well proven.

"Excuse me, but I actually am a Rocket Scientist, and you, sir, are full of sh!t."

[sirhc]

Now I might add that the FCC rules were going to change in 2014 so if you had your certifications for your radios "before" the rules changed you could continue to manufacturer and sale your radios for several years even if they did not meet the NEW requirements. So in my opinion getting your radios certified as soon as possible and making a small production run quickly was a brilliant move. Software can always be fixed at your leisure, say between May and December!

Now some people did not get "all" their desired certification in by the dead line *cough*!

I also disagree that the radios are basically the same and that Mimosa is just twice the cost, this statement is not so accurate Jim.

Look I am not a Mimosa fan, I do not have any of their gear (yet), and my WISP deploys 99% Ubiquiti radios with just a pinch of SAF and "I" still consider almost all the people at UBNT as my personal friend even though it seems more one sided as of late but anyway I will post at the end what my thoughts were of these two posts and what they screamed at me when I read them but first I do not want to muddy the water with my interpretation.

Looking forward to reading your posts!

[wtm]

In other words.......
Do you want to go with the manufacturer that had their radios sit in the warehouse (not making them money) UNTIL they had everything ready and working on them, the support, the firmware, etc.

OR the manufacturer that brought the radio out, made money off of it, and then made you the "Beta" point for making everything work? Jeopardizing your customers along the way!

[lligetfa]

Chris, I think you are reading more into it than was posted. I don't see where DFS approval (or lack thereof) is the brunt of Jim's rebuttal.

My take FWIW:
Bill is frustrated and perhaps not accustomed to the Ubiquiti model of release it early and fix it later. Jim has no problem with the concept of the early release and factors for the "bleeding edge" WRT how/where he deploys. Slow and steady wins the race.

Jim is simply saying that Mimosa could have released it early but sat on the product until it was more stable. Jim also knows which side his bread is buttered on and would not say anything that could strain the relationship. Bill has little to lose in speaking his mind.

[lligetfa]

OR the manufacturer that brought the radio out, made money off of it, and then made you the "Beta" point for making everything work? Jeopardizing your customers along the way!

WIth Ubiquiti, it is all beta all the time. Some just more beta than others. That is the hidden price you pay. Just tread lightly and test thoroughly.

[sirhc]

Chris, I think you are reading more into it than was posted. I don't see where DFS approval (or lack thereof) is the brunt of Jim's rebuttal.

Nor do I, I was just explaining "why" Mimosa rushed to get FCC approval even way before their firmware was even close to being ready for release. And it was not like they had a HUGE warehouse full that they were sitting on since May 2014 but a "small" production run that was used for testing, development, beta, and samples plus maybe a bit more. Now this is NOT first hand knowledge and I could be totally incorrect as I do not have formal relations with Mimosa, just repeating gossip.

I just wanted to point out that Mimosa knew the regulations were about to change (as did Ubiquiti) and that it was sort of now or never to be accepted under the existing requirements or be prepared to spend a whole lot more on radio designs and manufacturing to meet the new requirements. I am pretty sure the new requirements deal more with the higher power 5.7 to 5.8 and 5.15 to 5.25 GHz specifically with allowed splash into adjacent channels than they do with the lower powered UNI-II bands with DFS?

But I am talking more about what picture Jim painted about UBNT in his post, he tried to be the Superuser he is and as I said I gave him an A+ for effort but what does the post scream out to you?

[lligetfa]

Bill has little to lose in speaking his mind.

Maybe I worded that poorly... Bill has less to lose than Jim.

One think that some people like and others hate, is that Ubiquiti makes continual improvements. They release small test lots that the early adopters test. I'm not talking about early alpha units but the first public release. The haters cry that they are unsuspecting and unwitting beta testers. The early adopters that like it, understand what they are getting themselves into.

[sirhc]

Bill has little to lose in speaking his mind.

Maybe I worded that poorly... Bill has less to lose than Jim.

One think that some people like and others hate, is that Ubiquiti makes continual improvements. The release small test lots that the early adopters test. I'm not talking about early alpha units but the first public release. The haters cry that they are unsuspecting and unwitting beta testers. The early adopters that like it, understand what they are getting themselves into.

Well I agree that Jim is a Superuser/Positive propaganda generator as was I.

I did push all the things I liked which was a "LOT" but when I did not like something I pushed that opinion as well, supposedly one too many times thus why I suffer from my current medical condition known as "Post Dis-function".

I do not have a problem with Ubiquiti's business model, as obviously the Netonix roll out was not anywhere near perfect and I am also relying on my users to help with the software development. I tend to take the things I like about my mentors as Robert was/is.

But also we were forced to roll out when we did before software was completely ready because we did not have over $300+ MILLION in cash sitting in a bank in China to continue to meet expenses.

But I just found certain aspects of Jim's post amusing as he was making a VERY GOOD attempt to defend Ubiquiti AC gear over Mimosa gear. And do not get me wrong I am not defending anybody or saying one is better than another.

I do think that Jim is confusing how long "he" as a supper user has had AC gear and when the general public was able to get it as well as when UBNT gear became capable of PTMP and when "he" verses the general public got it. Hell I have had Ubiquiti AC gear probably longer then Jim did. I even still have a prototype Rocket AC Chassis that was not chosen for the final design that I picked up in SJ in November of 2013 which had led me to increase my radio cavity in my shield kits way bigger then was really needed.

[lligetfa]

Bill has little to lose in speaking his mind.

Maybe I worded that poorly... Bill has less to lose than Jim.

Well I agree that Jim is a Superuser/Positive propaganda generator as was I.

I would stop short of calling either of you "propaganda generators". As I said, Jim knows what side of his bread the butter is on and I for example, had very little vested interest so had very little to lose in speaking my mind.

I fully understand the low cost model and that you can't have your cake and eat it too WRT being an early adopter. If you can wait for product perfection and pay the cost it took to get it there, then go for it. Most WISPs didn't get to where they are that way. This industry moves fast and you need to be agile enough to move with it and accept that there will be bumps in the road.

[sirhc]

I would stop short of calling either of you "propaganda generators". As I said, Jim knows what side of his bread the butter is on and I for example, had very little vested interest so had very little to lose in speaking my mind.

Well yea, of course but you do NOT become a Superuser if all you do is complain about their gear, and if you complain about too many things you can be kicked out of that group and or even banned. But "Positive Propaganda Generator" or PPG is a catchy dare I say humorous definition which is where I was going with that, HUMOR!

Look Jim is a nice smart guy, I am not picking on Jim at all let us be clear on this up front.

I was just amused at his attempt to put a positive Ubiquiti spin on what Bill wrote up in his post which was obviously not so pro Ubiquiti.

If what Bill said is true, and I have no personal experience one way or the other to refute or endorse his findings, BUT with what Bill said it would definitely cause people to consider buying a Mimosa link to try and see, it even got me inspired to buy one (maybe)!?

Jim did his best to explain away Bill's pro Mimosa post I just think it was not exactly what Jim intended to say or maybe I just interpreted it differently which is why I made this post to see if it was just me.

Besides I am famously known as being the KING of bad affect, most times coming across exactly opposite of the way I intend.