help with new tower

[smartmoney]

I am needing some advice on a new tower setup
Bit of background
I'm an wisp residential installer for years that has stepped foot into co/ownership last year. I never did much past the residence.
We typically use Mikrotik and recently added ubiquiti into the mix. Just started to figure out the Mikrotik Routed system were using. I have helped setup some of out smaller towers and mini pops as well.
I was given the opportunity to setup my first solo tower which i will have complete control over (design, setup and management). I will be getting a vlan feed one hop from the fiber tower (fiber tower to water tower to me). I will control the radio on the WT. I will also fit the bill for equipment so i didn't want the "trial and error" method so i'm asking kindly for advice

I am having a hard time deciding on equipment. (omni vs sector - 2.4 vs 3.65 vs 5.8 vs AC)(yes i have 3.65 FCC license) Thinking 3.65 for backhaul because i have a rocket and dish already and interference issues. Tower has 2.4 sectors around and 5.8 on 2 sides plus omni.
Tower to WT is 3.6 miles with clean LOS at tower height and i did account for clean fresnel zone as well.
tower is going to be 65ft and should cover the whole subdivision of about 15 houses at most. I'm getting a feed of 50meg to start.
Tower will connect to NE
I will need at least 270deg coverage (so omni or 3 120 sectors with overlaps)
120v power at tower

Thought of using AC gear but it seems to be hard to get right now. I will need this to go up in the next two weeks. Any advice other than RUN!!!!! will be helpful twards my success.
Thanks

PS been trolling here for a while till i finally got lucky to snag a WS-8-250-DC, and WS-6-MINI and needed to get a firmware upgrade so i registered here. The mood here is much more helpful here that at the other equipment site forum where i'd be run into the ground for asking this question.

[sirhc]

I would use Legacy Rocket M5 (5 GHz) with Legacy 19dB 120 sectors with RF Armor shield kits if you have CLOS environment. Best bang for the buck in my opinion.

2.4 GHz is a MESS although a new useful use of 2.4 GHz seems to be the AF2X for PTP links cutting through some vegetation.

3.65 GHz is a pain and more for PTP links in my opinion.

[smartmoney]

5GHz for the backhaul as well, How would one keep all those freq in line?

[sirhc]

Well that is the idea of the shield kits.


The shield kits do not allow you to "reuse" channels or overlapping channels, it eliminates co-location noise and allows you to put more radios in a small cluster without stepping on your self.

You use UNI-II for short range PTMP and UNI-III for long range PTMP and then use UNI-I for 5 GHz PTP links.

But you can always use 3.65 for PTP as well if you have the license and know how to register your links with the FCC

[rebelwireless]

ubiquiti AC gear is available. Many vendors have current stock of the RocketAC-PtMP. This unit will work for AC and M gear if you are willing to run an RC firmware.

The AC exceeds the M gear in essentially every way *except* the hardware doesn't have a long ACK mode, meaning you have a 15 mile limit on PtMP.

For 270 degrees of coverage, look at 3 legacy 90degree sectors with RF armor. If you have a bit more cash, 6 of the new 45degree AC sectors would be fantastic, but might be overkill. 10Mhz on AC is worth 20-25Mhz on M gear, depending on client load. If you put 40 clients on the AC Rocket, it will outperform a RocketM5 w/ 40 clients nearly 3x over. That means 6 APs is very doable in UNII3 on 10Mhz if you go that route. That's upwards of 60Mbps aggregate per AP.

Stay away from an OMNI for most situations. Great for small, isolated areas with a dozen CPE, not good for a tower with a lot of exposure.

for 3.65, AF3X all the way. It's some money, but it will be a killer link so long as the spectrum is available.

[sirhc]

You can try AC gear but I still prefer the M series.

I get 70 Mbps per AP at 20 MHz UNI-II and 90Mbps with 30 MHz UNI-II with M gear.

The M series AP and clients are less expensive.

I only saw a benefit with AC in extremely low noise environments with relatively short links in PTMP to achieve anything above QAM-64 reliably.

I do like the AFX radios but to achieve QAM-256 without CHEATING on the gain of your antenna or cable loss beyond 8-10 miles is RARE.

I have 5 AFX links "perfectly" aligned at 10+ miles with 30 dB dishes with slant 45 and QAM-256 can only be achieved if I cheat.

Short links you can get QAM-1024 which helps but is not a game changer.

I was also pleasantly surprised that the AF5X were more easily knocked off the air by airMAX M series then the other way around, I thought for sure it would be the other way around.

Recently installing an AF5X link on a tower with 15 other airMAX links I also saw the "NEED" of my shield kits on a rocket dish and the box over the AF5X to protect the AF5X from other M5 radios in close proximity on the tower that were in channels butting right up against the AF5X (but not over lapping).

It is true I do not usually put more than 30 clients per AP and if I need more then 30 the legacy M series is cheap I add another AP with shields (they are cheap).

I have several videos on YouTube like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMv7JfG9cjI

Check them out and do what you decide is best for you but for now I have not yet been impressed enough to go AC and incur the expense.

In fact I remember just a few years ago some people said Titanium was the way to go and I looked at them and decided it was not worth the added expense. Look how much money and aggravation I saved.
I think I will wait yet 1 more revolution at my WISP of equipment before I upgrade.

The stuff being developed now for 2 years from now looks so much nicer. YES IT IS UBIQUITI STUFF.

[rebelwireless]

Chris, Updated firmwares on the AC gear RADICALLY changes its performance in noisy environments. M gear had a 5dBm+ advantage, but now AC gear has a solid advantage in the noise. Its night and day difference from the early firmware.

Your absolutely right about AF5x being finicky in noise. Even with a clear SNR advantage, other radios can throw it. This is improving in the beta firmware but an M5 link can be more resilient to uptime in a way. Maybe the M5 drops modulation heavily, but keeps the link where the AF5x is unwilling to drop modulation fast enough to keep the link.

Mimosa's B5c seems to be a solid comprise though, will drop modulation in noise much better. Currently comparing rocketAC-PtP vs mimosa b5c, the rocketAC is holding its own. A bit more jitter but 1/2 the price...

[smartmoney]

This discussion is exactly what kind of information i needed to mull over. And you are 2 of the 3 people i wanted to hear from without asking specifically for. THANKS

I did have a look at Mimosa but the B5c was a bit pricy for my budget. what about the B5-Lite because of the short distance i'm needing for backhaul?

Now the other big Q is setup. I'd love to try out my 2 new switches WS-6-MINI & WS-8-250-AC to power everything up but this is where i'm most green.
How to setup all radios on the mini with 1 cable run. I would have to setup some kind of tagging which i have never done. Also should i use a Mikrotik RBxx or one of the edge routers at the base? i'm probably more familiar with the mikrotik but if i'm learning, i'm in either way.

[rebelwireless]

Your already well in your way with a good switch ;)

Chris has a good example somewhere on here of tagging w/ the switch which should get you going.

I'd personally look at the edgerouter. I've been seeing significant quality issues with routerboard hardware and routeros software releases. Edgeos V1.8 has improved queues that can replace mikrotik simple queues. A little more complicated to setup, but better queue types (specifically fc_codel). Performance is significantly better than any of the MIPS routerboards too.

[rebelwireless]

I should add that VLAN interfaces are easy on the edgerouter. The only thing to consider here is that edgerouter aren't focused on bridging, they want to route..