Dish kit for NxN

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kbloch
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Dish kit for NxN

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:27 pm

Is a dish kit for the NxN adapter being considered or in the works?

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sirhc
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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:54 pm

kbloch wrote:Is a dish kit for the NxN adapter being considered or in the works?


What? I have no idea what you're asking there?
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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:20 pm

The current dish kit would not be able to fit the radios if they are using the NxN adapter for the AirFiber5X radios. The radio cover portion would have to be enlarged to fit two radios and the NxN adapter. We have a project upcoming maybe next year where we might be deploying 30+ AirFiber 5X microwave links. I like the disk kits you have as an improvement over the existing UBNT microwave dishes. The NxN adapters are likely to be used for many of our links to provide redundancy.

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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:35 pm

OH I get you now, the 2X and 4X radio stacker thing.

Yea we are thinking about those, nothing yet.

Personally I am not sure of the widespread benefit of them?

I mean now we are back to eating up 50MHz x 2 = 100 MHz or even 50MHz x 4 = 200 MHz.

If you remember I HATED the idea of the AF5 eating up 100 MHz

Not sure why someone would want to purchase AF5X with the 2X multiplier and a Dish as now you are more expensive than an AF5. - SILLY!!!

I guess you can put on a larger dish for longer shots which is nice and then kill 100 or 200 MHz of spectrum, and if shooting across water from Island to Island who cares as no one is out there in the ocean using 5GHz anyway.

I HATE TO THINK OF SOME IT GUY PUTTING UP AF5X 4X AND KILLING 200 MHZ of spectrum to shoot across the street, I HATE THAT MORE THAN AF5 :pissed:
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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:11 pm

@SirHC

You forget that with AF-5X + NxN you're not forced to use 100 MHz of spectrum. Same applies for AF5.
Actually you have been wrong here about your prediction....

With NxN you can create redudancy. Useful in some situations. Also the larger gain dish makes new possibilities where the AF5 gave up...

Sorry to say, but that's a fact....

I really love the AF5.... Using different frequencies for each direction can be a plus.
It has been easy for me to find free frequencies in both directions.

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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:17 pm

jjonsson wrote:@SirHC

You forget that with AF-5X + NxN you're not forced to use 100 MHz of spectrum. Same applies for AF5.
Actually you have been wrong here about your prediction....

With NxN you can create redudancy. Useful in some situations. Also the larger gain dish makes new possibilities where the AF5 gave up...

Sorry to say, but that's a fact....

I really love the AF5.... Using different frequencies for each direction can be a plus.
It has been easy for me to find free frequencies in both directions.


I may have been wrong as to how quickly but AF5 did not sell in the quantity that I thought it would.

I still hate anything in 5 GHz that can use more than 50 MHz (NOT JUST UBNT RADIOS), just takes one person next to a WISP tower to kill a tower.

It will happen, I admit it has not happened as soon as I thought but it will.

But hey, I hope I am forever wrong on this subject!!!!
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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:17 am

We have six AF5 and AF5X links in use. Only one of those links is using a 20 MHZ wide channel. All of the rest are using 10 MHZ wide channels as that is all that is needed. I agree on the problems with the AF5 or any radio for that matter using too much spectrum when it is not needed. I think as a whole the industry would be much better off if radios were made to use a dynamic spectrum and power output levels. If a link is idle then it should use much less spectrum and once power is over a threshold of what it needs to deliver data then it should be reduced. This is the way cell phone networks work and it has served them very well. They have much higher capacity per site then what the WISP market is receiving. Of course the equipment is also much more expensive.

For the project we have in the planning stage the microwave will be used to provide VOIP for a digital voice radio system. Even 1 Mbit per second full duplex would be more than adequate for our needs. But the main issue is reliability that we need to have at near 100%. The NxN will allow us to use two radios on the same antenna each with different frequencies. This along with a simple setup using RSTP should make for a much more reliable network. Yes it is possible for an antenna to get out of alignment but that is not as likely as an RF issue due to interference or other problems. Having two radios will also let us do firmware upgrades or channel changes without bringing a path down. This system will be composed of about 35 sites over three western states. Distances on links will be in many cases more than 50 miles. Our longest link could be 140 miles but the NxN would not be usable on that length. If we could get smaller channel widths such as 3 or 5 MHZ on the AirFiber 5x radios we would use them.

We have not used the RF Armor in the past but on this project I can see its value. The extra interference protection would be very much desired. The additional protection from the elements for the radios would be another plus. Some sites will be on mountains at above 10,000 feet elevation and others will be in very hot desert locations. Conditions will include extreme heat, snow, rain, dust, high winds etc. I want to minimize the number of 500 mile or more trips that will have to be made to repair a site so protection of the equipment is a must.

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Re: Dish kit for NxN

Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:45 am

kbloch wrote:The NxN will allow us to use two radios on the same antenna each with different frequencies.


And I would agree with that (redundancy against interference with 2 radios) if WISPs would do better grounding.

Over half of our RMAs are from damage that is clearly from lack of proper grounding. If WISPs deploy NxN for redundancy they need to step up their grounding practices.

From what I am seeing is if there is a Static Discharge, ESD Discharge, or ground potential shift both radios blow out their Ethernet ports. I mean you would achieve redundancy for spectrum interference but not from surge type damage.

I really wish WISPs would get more into proper grounding practices like cell carriers do which is where I learned it from.

1) Tower grounding system MUST be bonded to Electrical Service Ground else your Ethernet Cable is the bond. - VERY BAD

2) You can not rely on a steel tower being your ground run for several reasons so you NEED a dedicated "copper" ground cable run like #2 Green.
- A) Wire is made from copper because of its relatively low resistance, steel towers are a much higher resistance.

- B) Steel towers are usually multi parts bolted together and the connections are usually not good electrical connection.

- C) Surges from Static, ESD, or ground potential shifts will take the shortest less restive path like your Ethernet cable.

3) Ground Bus Bars should be installed on insulators. The reason for this is you do not want to try and drain current from the whole tower just the steel in the area around your antenna/radios. This is why Busbars are on insulators even though a wire from them may go 10 feet and clamp to an antenna. You want as much current as possible to take the path of the tower so if there is a charge on the steel 20 feet below your bus bar most of that current will flow down the steel rather then travel up the steel to get on to your grounding system.

4) Service loops on your Ethernet are there primarily to increase the distance of the Ethernet cable to Earth ground raising the resistance of the Ethernet cable making it less attractive to surges. You can go through a lot the calculation to determining the resistance of the intended ground path run and then calculate your needed Ethernet cable length to insure the intended ground path is shorter and less resistant or I as a rule of thumb increase the Ethernet cable run with a service loop to be 10% longer than the intended grounding system run to Earth Ground.

5) You should use #6 Green to lug to every antenna mount, I use a lug and put it on the antenna clamshell bolts with conductive anti corrosion paste.

6) If your radio has a ground lug use it. I use #6 with a small lug for some radios but I also use smaller 10AWG & 12AWG for radios with small ground lugs.

7) Towers need multiple ground rods spaced apart all connected to the master ground busbar at the base of the tower. The ground rods much reach VIRGIN CLAY SUBSOIL as that is where the Earth Ground Plane is because clay contains the conductive mineral. If you are on a rocky site look into supplementing your ground rods with chemical ground kits.

8) Run #2 Tin if buried or #2 Green if above ground to your service ground rods and a ground busbar in/on your equipment box. Make sure to ground everything that has a ground lug in your box

9) Grounding systems need maintenance too. Every spring check your ground bus and connection to insure the connection are corrosion free and everything looks good.

Here are 2 EXCELLENT posts on proper grounding:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=188
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1429
Proper grounding was one of the best things I learned for my WISP!

We have sold around 11,000 switches and we are on RMA 133, of these 133 RMAs maybe half were from something stupid like corrupted flash, failed power supplies, firmware upgrades, or simply valid failures but the rest are from surge damage that could have been prevented with proper grounding.

Oh and we have had a few come in for RMA with dead bug guts that shorted out chips. SERIOUSLY keep bugs out of your boxes especially Ladybugs.

I hate having to tell people their switch damage is not covered under warranty but I especially hate it when they know the damage was from a storm and claim it came DOA or something.

In the one post above I tell the story of Sprint removing the grounding system and we started losing equipment on that tower, we had NEVER lost equipment on that tower and now that the grounding system is replaced we are back to normal.
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Dish kit for NxN

Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:32 pm

Going to be following this build, I have been wanting to do a custom kit using this style of plates since they first appeared.
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